Seadog:

I've been trying to settle on a tweeter for several months.  This set up allows me to switch between tweeters with the throw of a switch.  The three shown are the K-77M, the Eminence APT 200 (same driver as the Crites tweeter), and the Beyma CP 25.  Without going into a lot of detail, I think that the Beyma will be the "one" that I stick with.  I still think that the improvement moving from the K401 to the 511B (or ALK Trachorns) far exceeds the improvement that a tweeter change can provide.

 

Is one of the top ones a Crites tweeter? I thought Bob's CT125 retrofit the K77 opening. Is the APT200 the same as some other Crites tweeter that I'm not aware of and have you used the CT125 in any of your research?

I'll be picking up a pair of Heresies with Bob's rebuilt networks and the CT125 soon. Looking forward to my own experimentation. Thanks for the comments on mid mods vs tweet mods. I still feel ok with my 400's but think there is something lacking on the top end of my LS's and I have new A/AA's in them. Tweeters could be the answer for me.

I'm also going to look into purchasing a pair of the K107's used in the CWIII and HIII for high end extension. And that is a Tractrix horn to boot!

Michael
 

Dean - I think I understand.

About this tweeter thing and what one perceives as shrill/harsh/sibilant, etc....   Right now, I don't think it's the WHOLE tweeter section that causes this.  For "me"....  I have no trouble with a tweeter being hotter than the mids say around 8k+, in fact, I like it.  But if that hotness is around 6k - yipes!   This makes me wonder 2 things....

1)  Maybe physically the ear can't tolerate hotness in that area.  This frequency area does a certain bad something physically vs. say 10k.  I even tried looking up where muted trumpet lies, as I think that darned thing lands smack dab in this 6500ish area but couldn't find anything.

2)  Could it be the overlap from the squawker here negatively affecting this area?  Like a build up of the 2 which ramps up the volume there OR causes distortion?   For instance, Craig keeps saying he feels my issue lies with the squawker but doesn't seem to clarify this.  :)    So if #2 is the culprit, I can see the type of crossover being critical to those with 'pierce' issues like me.   Since trying an ak-3 recently and instantly seeing my issue go away, and (I think) this x-over has a steeper slope and nukes the squawk sharper at the end of it's rope (if I have that right).....   then maybe.....   is it possible to take, say, a basic AA network and install a part that creates a steeper slope at the squawk/tweet transition area?   :o   That maybe this would reduce distortion there?     

colterphoto1:

Seadog:

I've been trying to settle on a tweeter for several months.  This set up allows me to switch between tweeters with the throw of a switch.  The three shown are the K-77M, the Eminence APT 200 (same driver as the Crites tweeter), and the Beyma CP 25.  Without going into a lot of detail, I think that the Beyma will be the "one" that I stick with.  I still think that the improvement moving from the K401 to the 511B (or ALK Trachorns) far exceeds the improvement that a tweeter change can provide.

 

Is one of the top ones a Crites tweeter? I thought Bob's CT125 retrofit the K77 opening. Is the APT200 the same as some other Crites tweeter that I'm not aware of and have you used the CT125 in any of your research?

I'll be picking up a pair of Heresies with Bob's rebuilt networks and the CT125 soon. Looking forward to my own experimentation. Thanks for the comments on mid mods vs tweet mods. I still feel ok with my 400's but think there is something lacking on the top end of my LS's and I have new A/AA's in them. Tweeters could be the answer for me.

I'm also going to look into purchasing a pair of the K107's used in the CWIII and HIII for high end extension. And that is a Tractrix horn to boot!

 

Michael
 

Michael, the Eminence APT 200 is available from a number of sources including Parts Express and uses the same driver that Bob Crites' tweeter, the CT 125 uses - the Eminence APT-50 tweeter.  Bob designed and commissioned production of a horn lens the shape of K-77s to fit the APT-50 driver so that the resulting driver would be a drop-in replacement for the K-77.  Some forum members who do not need (or want) the K-77 shape have opted for the APT 200, which has a wider dispersion in the classic baby cheeks style.  There is also another Eminence horn available, the APT-150 which looks like a much bigger version of the K-77 shape.  I use both, an Eminence APT 200 in my Klipschorns, and Bob's CT 125 in my center Belle.

Carl.

mdeneen:

Trumpets would top out at about 1Khz.

I think Muted trumpet is another ballgame.  And I think there's various methods used to get that effect that must change the frequencies?   Basically, I cannot have Miles Davis on in this house without seriously eq'ing this 6-6500 area.  It goes beyond annoyance to physically buzzing my eardrums.  It leaps out freekishly at these certain frequencies to the point of being in the damaging category (IMO).   When I turn on my deq to see what it looks like, the muted trumpet has a bar that skyrockets right at this 6k area.  Same with sibilance.  For us here, it's just a big trouble area and have no issues with pain if the higher frequencies are hot.

meagain:

mdeneen:

Trumpets would top out at about 1Khz.

I think Muted trumpet is another ballgame.  And I think there's various methods used to get that effect that must change the frequencies?   Basically, I cannot have Miles Davis on in this house without seriously eq'ing this 6-6500 area.  It goes beyond annoyance to physically buzzing my eardrums.  It leaps out freekishly at these certain frequencies to the point of being in the damaging category (IMO).   When I turn on my deq to see what it looks like, the muted trumpet has a bar that skyrockets right at this 6k area.  Same with sibilance.  For us here, it's just a big trouble area and have no issues with pain if the higher frequencies are hot.

Lisa,

    What Miles Davis recordings are you speaking of?  I have heard that some of the recordings of say, Kind of Blue are not top quality recordings. Maybe some of the cool jazz cats from Craigs thread could expand on this some more.  This is just simply something that I have heard over the years, how much truth there is too it ???????

meagain:

mdeneen:

Trumpets would top out at about 1Khz.

I think Muted trumpet is another ballgame.  And I think there's various methods used to get that effect that must change the frequencies?   Basically, I cannot have Miles Davis on in this house without seriously eq'ing this 6-6500 area.  It goes beyond annoyance to physically buzzing my eardrums.  It leaps out freekishly at these certain frequencies to the point of being in the damaging category (IMO).   When I turn on my deq to see what it looks like, the muted trumpet has a bar that skyrockets right at this 6k area.  Same with sibilance.  For us here, it's just a big trouble area and have no issues with pain if the higher frequencies are hot.

I think this might be possible to be linked to the recordings themselves, but I'm not that educated in that area. Miles' trumpet does have a peculiar ringing timbre that is very metallic, somewhat shrill, and could be construed as bothersome, but isn't it possible that that is simply his 'voice' in the trumpet? Miles recordings had a very unique tonality whatever the source or cause. 

Ah - but despite the quality of the recording, I have no problem on another pair of khorns in the same room.   I also have a Sinatra cd with 2 muted horn sections I use as a test CD which I know is a bad recording.  It's gone now.  I have a few sibilance test cds.  Sibilance (we're talking physical ear buzz/duck & cover level) now gone.   It's not the recordings or the room.   But for 'me' I think my issues are moot as of this weekend, and I'm REALLY enjoying khorns today and have had a few epiphanys and what I need to do from here. 

Anyhoo, I just really believe that there's alot of variables to these tweeter experiences out there to consider before blaming just the tweeter (for loud vs. soft, etc. etc).  But I'd really like to know the answer to the 2 theories I posted above.

Doesn't the 1 kHz top for the trumpet refer just to the fundamental frequency?  That's around the famous high C of sopranos, btw.

However, the overtones for an instrument have to be considered, and I'd guess the trumpet has a lot of them in order to sound so piercing in those high notes.  The first overtone (harmonic) of that top note would be 2 kHz, the second would be 3 kHz, the next 4 kHz (around the top note on the piano), the next 5 kHz, the next 6 Khz, etc.  For a piercing exaggeratiion, I would think of exaggerated harmonics between the fundamental 1 kHz and 6 kHz, but not necessarily that high.  Thus, I also tend to suspect the area of the tweeter-midrange interface.  Do you still hear it if you cover only the tweeter's mouth to see what you hear from the midrange?

The muted trumpet would have an entirely different distribution of overtones.  I have not seen a thorough discussion/analysis of these differences.

Michael,

Carl answered the APT 200 / Crites tweeter question.  Since I was not restricted to the K-77 hole size, I went with the APT 200 because it has better dispersion than the horn of the K-77 or Crites tweeter.  Although rotating my K-77s to the vertical orientation helped somewhat.

My brother has Khorns with ALK Trackhorns, Deans crossovers, and the APT 200 tweeters.  His center Cornwall has the Crites tweeter replacing the K-77, and his 3-channel stereo sound is seemless.  Except for dispersion differences, the APT and the Crites tweeters will sound exactly the same (IMO).  He is running VRDs and a Scott 130 preamp, and his setup is one of the best that I have heard (his room is very good also, which a BIG factor in the sound).

In my picture, clockwise from the lower left is the K-77 (mounted vertically), the APT 200, and the Beyma CP 25.  I agree with Dean's impression when he wrote " ...I ended up preferring the Beyma too. It does the work of adding the top in without drawing attention to itself."  In my case, it also may be that it matches better with the Altec mid horn.  IMO the Beyma gives the sound "sparkle" (for lack of a better word) without competing with the midrange.

David

Seadog:

Michael,

Carl answered the APT 200 / Crites tweeter question.  Since I was not restricted to the K-77 hole size, I went with the APT 200 because it has better dispersion than the horn of the K-77 or Crites tweeter.  Although rotating my K-77s to the vertical orientation helped somewhat.

My brother has Khorns with ALK Trackhorns, Deans crossovers, and the APT 200 tweeters.  His center Cornwall has the Crites tweeter replacing the K-77, and his 3-channel stereo sound is seemless.  Except for dispersion differnences, the APT and the Crites tweeters will sound exactly the same (IMO).  He is running VRDs and a Scott 130 preamp, and his setup is one of the best that I have heard (his room is very good also, which a BIG factor in the sound).

In my picture, clockwise from the lower left is the K-77 (mounted vertically), the APT 200, and the Beyma CP 25.  I agree with Dean's impression when he wrote " ...I ended up preferring the Beyma too. It does the work of adding the top in without drawing attention to itself."  In my case, it also may be that it matches better with the Altec mid horn.  IMO the Beyma gives the sound "sparkle" (for lack of a better word) without competing with the midrange.

David

Good point about the Beyma / Altec synergy.  Last year I ran three-way Altec Valencias in the rear with an 806a/Beyma combo (then 811s) that was outstanding.  The Beymas seem to match nicely with the softer Altec drivers.   I kept that combo in the rear even after moving my Belles to the rear (and transfering Altec drivers to Belle land) until recently when Sheltie Dave graciously loaned my some Eminence tweeters to try a match for the rear (5 Eminence tweeters in surround is outstanding).  But, now I have some big a*& 511s in the rear with nice Altec drivers so the Beymas may return as my rear tweeters.

I agree that running Eminence tweeters at full volume - they can certainly draw attention to themselves.  They seem to match pretty well with K55s - - but I think you really need serious attenuation so that they also do their job without drawing attention to themselves. Even running the Eminence in the rear with the Belles - I have them seriously attentuated.   I cannot imagine running the Eminence on a regular basis without attenuating them some.   

Carl.  

It seems to me that the APT 200 needs a 90 degree rotation.  I know the klipsch/EV is oriented correctly. I don't know about the Beyma.

Seadog:

I've been trying to settle on a tweeter for several months.  This set up allows me to switch between tweeters with the throw of a switch.  The three shown are the K-77M, the Eminence APT 200 (same driver as the Crites tweeter), and the Beyma CP 25.  Without going into a lot of detail, I think that the Beyma will be the "one" that I stick with.  I still think that the improvement moving from the K401 to the 511B (or ALK Trachorns) far exceeds the improvement that a tweeter change can provide.

 

skywave-rider:

It seems to me that the APT 200 needs a 90 degree rotation.  I know the klipsch/EV is oriented correctly. I don't know about the Beyma.

Seadog:

I've been trying to settle on a tweeter for several months.  This set up allows me to switch between tweeters with the throw of a switch.  The three shown are the K-77M, the Eminence APT 200 (same driver as the Crites tweeter), and the Beyma CP 25.  Without going into a lot of detail, I think that the Beyma will be the "one" that I stick with.  I still think that the improvement moving from the K401 to the 511B (or ALK Trachorns) far exceeds the improvement that a tweeter change can provide.

 

I'm afraid that I would have to respectfully disagree.  From what I understand, the APT 200 is just not as dependent as the other two baby cheeks designs (JBL, Beyma) concerning its orientation.   Therefore, rotating it 90 degrees might help nominally, but not much.  The Beyma was oriented correctly.

Then again, what do I know?  I've dropped the concept of tweeters in front ever since I went to Altec 902 drivers.  And, JBL 2404s are now sitting on top of my Belles in back. 

I do still have and appreciate Eminence tweeters in some other parts of my 7.1 Heritage though.

Carl. 

P.S.  Reading this thread reminds me that Coytee sent Lisa his 2404s.  Does anyone remember if she liked them or not?

Interesting, well I believe the APT200 is simply a CD horn, just like a baby version of my 811b. I tried the tweeter in that orientation and the imaging was not useable. Hey, I have a 902 also! I am currently trying to integrate a tweeter, but may go back to 2way. How do you find the HF extension on your 902?

My thread on the Altec is here:

 I just did an A/B between my crites crossover/woofer HII's (vintage 1986) and my 2000 HII's...the crites equipped stuff definetly sparkle more.