ThomasB:

I didn’t mean to open a can of worms on this subject.   Yet corporations should understand that consumers see source and quality of the product as the single most important factor.  It should mean that CEOs of manufacturers will brag about the source of their product (such as made in Hope, Arkansas) and not mask it. 

As a consumer we should appreciate companies that offer forums such as this, where we customers may candidly discuss their products.  Such companies should also appreciate the feedback that they receive even if it isn’t 100% what they want to hear.   The problem for products that are engineered in USA and made in China, is that it becomes only a small baby step to being totally designed, engineered and manufactured in China and where 99.9% of the value added processes are being done outside the USA.   Typically engineering and production must always work hand in hand for efficiency and quality.   When the total process is turned over, the US will have lost another of its many innovations.

Thomas,

First, welcome to the forum, I hope you stick around, ask lots of questions, read up on things you are interested and have a good time.  I agreee with your quote above, I think the vast majority of folks on here do, and Klipsch is not afraid to hear people discussing their products, good and bad. 

I am not only trying to buy US, but also local as much as I possibly can.  Local coffee, sporting goods store, etc.  Everything I possibly can I try to buy from a local vendor, then a US vendor.  ()There are only two companies that make dress shoes in the entire US.  Johnston and Murphy has the headquarters in TN, all shoes are made in Mexico.  To do that I pay a big premium over what the same would be from a national retailer, and over products from China.  When you buy a car it lists the content of parts and where they are assmebled.  While I am a not in favor of a requirement for all products, I'm with you, companies should list whether they are made in the US or not.  I can live with them using imported materials (like New Balance does).  I love the catalogs and web sites that have a sticker that says, proudly made in the USA. 

Do I stick my head in the sand and say I refuse to buy this, or that, no, but I try to keep it in the US.  With Audio it is so easy, you don't even have to strain to have the best of the best all USA made.  McIntosh (foreign owend, but made in NY), Klipsch, Basis, NosValves, Juicy Music, Cary, and on and on and on and on.

Hope you enjoy the forum.

Travis  

 T2K-nice cat!

 In the global economy, consumers are more often buying a nameplate and not the product of a single company. RCA is just a brand of Thompson, a French company. Sometimes when we , as adults, buy the consumer items we longed for in our youth, we find the curent version is just a nameplate stuck on a product that has been cost-engineereed into mediocrity. That's the yin-yang of being an early adopter...the first generation will be expensive but probably well-built. The succeeding generations and the imitators will be cheaper but far less substansial. A pal of mine has one of the first Phillips CD players, made in Belgium. 20 years old and still working fine. 

In durable goods I think the integrity of the company's management has more to do with quality than where it's made. A warning sign is when previously cloesly held companies go public. Then the products and the quality of work life for employees often suffer as the imperative to maximize share price ovverides all other considerations.  

 In personal products I still look for the Made in USA label. A small store I patronize in New Orleans has a wide range of personal care products, some with look-a-like labels mimicing well-known American brands.  I had to look very carefully to find a toothbrush and toothpaste made in USA, and when I found them they were not my regular brands. But I bought them and used them on my trip because at least I knew there were American-made AND sourced from American raw materials. That last point was brought home in the pet food scandal earlier this year.  It's sad that the final QA is being done by recalls and class-action lawsuits.

 The practice I am learning is to reject the role of consumer, and adopt the role of a conscious participant in the world around me. Consumer is a word invented not surprisingly  to describe a pattern of action and training benefitting the largest industrial concerns. To consume is to "use up" and the quicker the better! Consumers are trained to simply "get the lowest price" - that's called being a "smart consumer." Of course, being really smart might entail asking difficult questions like, was anyone abused so that I can have this product? Is this product dangerous to my health? Was the enviornment damaged in achieving this low price? If I buy this will it hurt or help my neighbors and other local businesses in the community where I live? Oh no, we don't want people being THAT smart, just smart about the Every Day Low Price! 

An entire industry called "economics" is employed at full tilt to brainwash consumers. Fancy notions like trade balance, free trade, supply and demand, global economy, free markets and a whole host of anti-worker, anti-union, anti-environmental concepts are blasted through the media day in, and day out to keep people from asking those difficult questions. If you believe in God, ask yourself if he created "The Consumer" in his image, or Man in his image? If you don't believe in God, ask yourself, is your higher purpose in life to be a good Consumer? Do you really need to understand global economic concepts in order to live your life in decency? Can you as a fellow traveller on the planet really "shop without consequences?"

As a conscious participant in the world around me, I begin with my own back yard. Then like a rock dropped in a pond, I work outwards in concentric circles. Do I want it polluted? Do I want my neighbors to have good opportunities to make a decent living? Would I want slavery here? Do I like being able to have my local expert fix or repair the thing I bought from him? Will I be better off if all the businesses in my area are out of area corporations, or will it be better if we have more local ownership? Is it better to buy locally grown food, or import it from across the globe? Yes, I still must buy things from distant places and often with unknown consequences, but I do it much much less than I used to.

 T2K - regarding war with the US...

This whole "war with the US" thing has been touted by a minority of Chinese leaders or the press on and off for the last 25 years... and (thankfully) not a single shot has been fire.

Truth of the matter is - if they did go to war with the US - their economy would completely implode from the instant lack of exported goods to the US. The US is not only the largest consumer of exported Chinese goods - but also of ALL Chinese goods - exported or domestic (to China).  It would be financial suicide for the entire country to start engage in conflict.  

J.4knee:

One only needs to look at the issues with pet food and recent toy manufacturer issues 

[...] It is not the Chinese or whomever I have a problem with it is the parent company’s who chose dirt-cheap labor and call it staying competitive.  

J4 - how many kids do you know of over the years that have died from lead paint on their matchbox cars? I had about 300 of them myself when I was a kid, and I turned out fine *twitch*.  Sorry - but for some things - there is just a bit too much hyper-sensitivity in US society these days - including child discipline - but that's a whole other tangent.

As for parent company's chosing dirt-cheap labor... well - like I said earlier - my company manufactures in the US, Mexico and China. 5 years ago, it was all in the US, and we have been around for 90+ years. We held out as long as we could... but the truth of the matter is that the consumers (mostly north and central america) demanded lower prices. The laborers were demanding higher salaries. The costs of materials were increasing at an alarming rate (Zinc and Copper are two of our largest needs, and both tripled in less than 4 years time, even from abroad). Executive fat was trimmed and trimmed again and the numbers *still* were not coming out to make the shareholders happy.

The only answer to avoid closing the doors and putting ALL the American employees out of work entirely was to first privatize the company, then open plants abroad. We had to cut a good chunk of domestic labor as a result when we moved lines abroad, but as a direct result to remaining price competitive we have both been able to expand those plants capacities abroad AND domestically, and hire back MORE American workers than we had to let go.

Understand - without having moved operations abroad - this would NOT have happened. The company would have been forced to close and Americans would out of work.  I imagine Klipsch's story is something along those lines.

This is a global age. There is absolutely no way around it.  Yes - it sucks to a degree... but until American consumers start being more realistic about pricing in their consumable goods - this is what we are faced with.

ThomasB:

corporations should understand that consumers see source and quality of the product as the single most important factor.

This is false. At least by the majority... the single most important factor is PRICE. For a very select few it is not - and for the bulk of your middle-class consumers in this country - there are only a few select areas in which they will consider price last. Audiophiles happens to be one of those groups. They might insist on only American Made speakers from Hope, but they have a Nissan parked outside. While others might have a Ford parked outside (nevermind where various parts of it come from), and a Samsung plasma screen hung on the wall. See where I am going with this?

ThomasB:

The problem for products that are engineered in USA and made in China, is that it becomes only a small baby step to being totally designed, engineered and manufactured in China and where 99.9% of the value added processes are being done outside the USA.   Typically engineering and production must always work hand in hand for efficiency and quality.   When the total process is turned over, the US will have lost another of its many innovations.

That is also specifically why that will never happen. At least not in my company, and doubtfully in Klipsch. The R&D is done here - from concept to design to prototyping to tooling.  The manufacturing line is also then built and set up here in the US, scrutinized, modified, and detailed. At that point - the heads of manufacturing for the non-US facilities are brought over and taught the line down to the smallest step and detail - this often takes several weeks. Then the line is shipped off, and our manufacturing engineers and qc folks from here in the US make regular trips to make quality is kept up while costs are kept down. 

 "This is a global age. There is absolutely no way around it.  Yes - it sucks to a degree... but until American consumers start being more realistic about pricing in their consumable goods - this is what we are faced with."

================

It has always been a global age. In 1250 Venice was already trading with China. Trade along the Mediterranean known "world" was occuring long before that. What's changed has nothing to with the concept of global trade. By the time the word "economy" had any meaning global trade was already a part of it.

What HAS changed can be simply described as the rules of trade. These rules, and who gets to set them, are the new element, not the trade itself. In the days of Marco Polo, Venice would not have had the possibility of creating laws which prevented Cathay from perhaps also selling silk to India. Today, a select group of unaccountable individuals have exactly such powers, and can override the interests of peoples world wide, even in democratic societies. The current sensation of "harm" being generated by trade is only because of the rule-making, not because of the trade, or because the trade is global. Briefly then, the trade process has short-circuited the democratic process, and that is how harm is occuring. 

mdeneen:

The practice I am learning is to reject the role of consumer, and adopt the role of a conscious participant in the world around me. Consumer is a word invented not surprisingly  to describe a pattern of action and training benefitting the largest industrial concerns. To consume is to "use up" and the quicker the better! Consumers are trained to simply "get the lowest price" - that's called being a "smart consumer." Of course, being really smart might entail asking difficult questions like, was anyone abused so that I can have this product? Is this product dangerous to my health? Was the enviornment damaged in achieving this low price? If I buy this will it hurt or help my neighbors and other local businesses in the community where I live? Oh no, we don't want people being THAT smart, just smart about the Every Day Low Price! 

Boy you sure can tell you moved from Santa Clara County to Humbolt County (or thereabouts) 

Actually, I agree 100% with what you are saying, you just said it so much better then me.  That is why I bought from you, that is why I bought from my java house (I know the coffee is imported, but the owner, his wife, his kids live in my town). 

Price is always going to be the No. 1 factor for most people, and China is going to win that battle because they earn $25 a month, have children working in the plants, don't have to worry about keeping the enviornment safe, and have no accountability with product liability laws. 

However, if you want the best tool box money can buy you get a Gestner, made in USA.  Sure they just started selling an inferior overseas line of products, but if you can, you get the hand made in the USA one.  Can every machinist afford one now, no, but to me it is worth not getting somethine else in order to have that one instead of the very nice, but not made in USA one.

Don't get me wrong, I have only been on this kick for a few years.  It started with all things shoes and suits.  Our garmet industry wiped out by, ahhh it doesn't matter the whys or the whats, I get satisfaction out of it. 

The other reason to buy local is that small business is what keeps this country going.  Despite what anyone thinks about global economy, being competitive, small business in the US is what employees the majority of people.  Without the local small business people there will be no need anything else. 

Travis

Travis---

HA HA - - I also bet you are enjoying the new feeling of "intention" when you make those better purcchases! I know that for a long time I shopped with no good or high intention, just to have the stuff. Now, if I pay the extra few dollars to have the local product, I can add so much more intention to the purchase. The intention goes beyond my simple need for the product. So, in essence, it converts shopping from mere "consumption" to a purpose-filled act that goes beyond your own being. I like that a lot. Life today has a way of losing intention and meaning. 

Mark

P.S. -- Yeah, Santa Clara was on another planet! Up here in Humboldt we have a saying, "everyone has 3 jobs." It's true. So, this shopping with intention thing really hits home. 

They are being manufactured out of my garage......Klipsch is very efficient, no pun intended.  I'm also half chinese and half "American" (I really am) so my garage turns out to be the best place for production.  Hey,  my real world career is that of a production manager..............All I wanted to do was say the gargae thing and this entire post ended up tying in altogether......how cool was that?

Napolean would be proud

srobak:

J4 - how many kids do you know of over the years that have died from lead paint on their matchbox cars? I had about 300 of them myself when I was a kid, and I turned out fine *twitch*.  Sorry - but for some things - there is just a bit too much hyper-sensitivity in US society these days - including child discipline - but that's a whole other tangent.

As for parent company's chosing dirt-cheap labor... well - like I said earlier - my company manufactures in the US, Mexico and China. 5 years ago, it was all in the US, and we have been around for 90+ years. We held out as long as we could... but the truth of the matter is that the consumers (mostly north and central america) demanded lower prices. The laborers were demanding higher salaries. The costs of materials were increasing at an alarming rate (Zinc and Copper are two of our largest needs, and both tripled in less than 4 years time, even from abroad). Executive fat was trimmed and trimmed again and the numbers *still* were not coming out to make the shareholders happy.

The only answer to avoid closing the doors and putting ALL the American employees out of work entirely was to first privatize the company, then open plants abroad. We had to cut a good chunk of domestic labor as a result when we moved lines abroad, but as a direct result to remaining price competitive we have both been able to expand those plants capacities abroad AND domestically, and hire back MORE American workers than we had to let go.

Understand - without having moved operations abroad - this would NOT have happened. The company would have been forced to close and Americans would out of work.  I imagine Klipsch's story is something along those lines.

This is a global age. There is absolutely no way around it.  Yes - it sucks to a degree... but until American consumers start being more realistic about pricing in their consumable goods - this is what we are faced with.

I'd say we have some different beliefs in this regard my friend, esp on the macro level.  

It's likely that we didn't recognize the ramifications of lead poisoning from matchbox cars 30 years ago, nor the symptoms.   They were damaging our bodies but we didn't know it at the time, just as with many other diseases such as Lyme Disease.   We'll likely find out tomorrow that there are other scourges that will impact our lives.   

The only "consumers" in the USA that are truly demanding lower prices are the big box retailers such as Wal-Mart etc, so that they may increase their profit margins.   Because they are big, they now have more market power than the manufacturers.   Yet the USA itself still has more market power than all the exporters such as China and could have demanded trade concessions.  Instead our trade policies were subverted by Wall St. interests that were more concerned about multi national profits today instead of tomorrow, and cared less about the interests of the USA as a country.   

I still support the neighborhood stereo shops  that provide service and attempt to differentiate themselves by offering knowledge and other services.   BTW I just bought a new Sony XBR 52 from a local dealer that offered exemplary service even though I could have saved $500 by going for lowest cost on the internet.  

The big box stores have ended up being the scourge of the USA because they have the power to demand huge price concessions from US manufacturers.  This is what costs our country enormously in the long run.   Free (but unbalanced and unfair) trade is a piece of fiction that benefits a few capitalist elites while it disrupts and destroys our middle class. 

I have to admit that I (as with Lou Dobbs etc) have had relatively strong feelings on this and have put my money where my mouth is.  I will pay more to defend our country's economy, and to avoid the rush to the bottom that Wall St interests have pushed as the "new way", when what it really is is a new way for them to increase their profits for the few, at the expense of the many and the big picture that represents an overall strong US economy and self sufficient nation.. (btw i'm not sure that the grammar in that last sentence would pass muster)

Let me know when any of you run for office

ThomasB:

I still support the neighborhood stereo shops  that provide service and attempt to differentiate themselves by offering knowledge and other services.   BTW I just bought a new Sony XBR 52 from a local dealer that offered exemplary service even though I could have saved $500 by going for lowest cost on the internet. 

[...]

I have to admit that I (as with Lou Dobbs etc) have had relatively strong feelings on this and have put my money where my mouth is.  I will pay more to defend our country's economy, and to avoid the rush to the bottom

While I certainly applaud your efforts in keeping money "home" - please tell me you understand that your action above had the exact opposite effect? What I mean is your mom & pop stereo shops do not get the same pricing as the big box or online e-tailers do, just because of a quantity of purchase standpoint. Like all producers of goods - they have very generous pricing for large-volume purchasers such as your BBs, Walmarts, etc... The importers and distributors have MUCH different pricing for your mom & pop and otherwise low-quantity purchasers. To remain remotely competitive, those mom & pop shops have a much lower profit margin than their big-box & e-tailing brothers. Yes, you helped the locale shop a bit - but at the same time you also sent MORE money back overseas to Sony (Japan) and it's distributors (Japanese based) than you would have, had you in fact just bought it for 500 less from online. Make no mistake in thinking any significant portion of that 500 went into the pockets of the shop you bought it from. Most of it went back to their supplier and consequently up the chain.

Just something to consider. 

srobak:

That is also specifically why that will never happen. At least not in my company, and doubtfully in Klipsch. The R&D is done here - from concept to design to prototyping to tooling. 

Wasn't there some news lately about plants in China having big problems with counterfiting and pirating product?  So the manuf. gets a great price on the labor and get a lower cost per unit, but they end up competing against themselves on the product that ends up going out the back door under a different, or even the same, name. 

I am sure that China has had to give more assurances on this but how do you keep that in check.

I talked to an engineer who has to go to China periodically to vist their plant, QA, etc., and the conditions he describes are just horific. He just hates it when he has to go over there.   Price does matter, it is the first principal in macro economics, however, at some point alltrustic values can come into play.  Clothing and the gradual elimination of child labor used to mae it is a good example.  When people were made aware of who was making their clothes and the conditions where they lived, they quit buying those clothes, even if others were more expensive.  If you had a dog get sick recently you will pay twice the price on food, made in USA like Flint River Ranch, to avoid all of the hearache and expense and glad to do it..

Normally product liability laws insure that products are designed and made in a safe manner.  Where products are made in a country where you have no legal recourse the only function that insures safety is inspection.  We have discovered recently there is not enough resources to be able to do an adequate inspection.  People eventually choose not to accept certain risks, such as with their children or pets, and will avoid products where risks remain.

So while price is a major factor, other outside factor do come into play besides price as purely a function of supply and demand.

Travis