Technical Questions

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

ClaudeJ1 — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:30:37 GMT

DrWho:
I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative....this is a topic I find extremely interesting and just trying to offer some counter-point to spur on some conversation.

My biggest question would be, what exactly is the meaningfulness of adjustment for a real room? Like what problems are being introduced by the room that the EQ is supposed to be fixing? And then how well does the EQ fix the problem?
Btw, I missed the thread on the health issues, but I hope all is well.

It's all of our nature to be agrumentative about audio. It's the only way to make us think about other possiblities, so no problemo there. While aligning voice coils was easy for me, it still took countless hours of moving components, litening, measuring, second and third opinions from other audophiles, and 1/24th octave measuring gear to get the closest thing to sine sweep "dirty curves" from pink noise. I did discover that my subs were the biggest issue and had to reverse polarity to get the to smooth out and increase the low bass output instead of create a suckout. So basically I got the entire setup to be as good as possible before applying the Audissey room EQ, which was really the icing on a very good cake to start with.

Thanks for the kind thoughts about my mom. Stage 4 lymphoma and it's just a matter of time, as she will go to a better place soon.

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

DrWho — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:45:37 GMT

ClaudeJ1:
Don't you EQ your PA stuff for the space your're in?

I don't...even when I have multiple graphics and PEQ's on hand. I'll see if I can't find this one article that talks about pre-90's vs post-90's EQ methods. With properly positioned speakers, time-domain spectrometry should demonstrate the precedance effect and how the power response is the dominating factor of how the system is perceived. Sometimes I'll throw in EQ to tame some feedback, but the real problem is lack of control over the polars (whether it be the speakers or the microphone), but we don't have that problem in home listening....well I suppose it sometimes exists with microphonic turntables/tubes

I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative....this is a topic I find extremely interesting and just trying to offer some counter-point to spur on some conversation.

My biggest question would be, what exactly is the meaningfulness of adjustment for a real room? Like what problems are being introduced by the room that the EQ is supposed to be fixing? And then how well does the EQ fix the problem?

Btw, I missed the thread on the health issues, but I hope all is well.

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

ClaudeJ1 — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:32:45 GMT

Cask05:
"The tweeter sound arrives at 3.7 ms but has an internal reverberation whose period is about 167 microseconds with a decay rate of about 9 dB per second. This causes irregularities in the free-field sound around 6 kHz...The midrange sound first appears at 5.38 ms and shows a mild reverberation characteristic which pulls the energy out for a half millisecond or so before it drops. Subsequent enclosure reflections occur after about 6 ms. The first sound from the woofer is not on this measurement since it arrives about 8.4 ms after the sound from the tweeter."
Claude, as you can see, that 8.4 ms offset is a big delay relative to the Jub's 2.2 ms relative delay (ref. KPT-KHJ-LF bass bin and K-402/K69 upper horn assembly).

I'm only concerned about the delay from the mid to the woofer. This is why my midbass/mirange/twetter horns are in the corners 4 feet back.

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

ClaudeJ1 — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 03:22:39 GMT

jwc:
mikebse2a3:

Hey Claude
When you have time how about a picture of your latest setup.

mike tn
I would like to see too. A close up of your top section on your Khorns. More details on the passives....
Are you still using a cone for mids?
jc

I will try to post photos by this weekend. It's a total hack job by anyone's standards, but it's still in the R&D stage.....done with the least regard to aesthetics. But at least you will have some idea of the simplicity of it all.

JC, the MB-1 has a Black Widow 12" driver with a beefy magnet and a 4" voice coil feeding a large styrofoam phase plug in the large horn throat (about 6" I'm guessing). They are basically making a compression driver out of a kevlar impregnated cone. It really sounds amazing teamed up with the JBL 2360 and the 2446 driver (a little flatter than the EV-DH1a it replaced). Together they cover 180-6,000 Hz. with the VC's jammed in the corner. You'll see in the photos.

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

jwc — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:31:10 GMT

mikebse2a3:

Hey Claude
When you have time how about a picture of your latest setup.

mike tn

I would like to see too. A close up of your top section on your Khorns. More details on the passives....

Are you still using a cone for mids?

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

mikebse2a3 — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:15:48 GMT

Hey Claude

When you have time how about a picture of your latest setup.

mike tn

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

ClaudeJ1 — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:01:25 GMT

colterphoto1:
"If you look at my curve, it was done in corners, in my concrete basement, 7-foot ceinlings,"
-so then you have all kinds of room gain, negating any really meaning full data, other than 'these sound like this in MY room'.

I can't believe a knowledgeable guy like you even wrote that. What could be more meaningful then getting everything below 300 Hz. to Plus/Minus 5 db in a real listening environment. That's how PWk designed the Khorns to start with. The chamber only allowed him to do more isolated measurements of driver and crossover behavior, another great tool, but it doesn't negate the meaningfulness of adjustment for a real room.

Don't you EQ your PA stuff for the space your're in?

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

ClaudeJ1 — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:25:35 GMT

mikebse2a3:
The PEQ comment is just a sign that you really don't grasp what is being done with the K402/TAD 4002. Value versus Cost of the TADs in your comment is a personel choice but performance itself is a different matter Claude and the K402/TAD has a clarity and coherence that must be experienced and to make comments such as you have based on no experience of them(if you have used the TADs then I apoligize but you have said nothing to indicate you have any real amount of experience with them) is really meaningless.
Again Claude my orginal response to your post wasn't about wether the MWM, KHorn,or Jubilee was the better reproducer but instead about the ways you were forming your many conclusions and stating them as fact which I believe to be flawed/wrong based on again the reasons I orginally stated.
The above being said again Claude you obviously enjoy your system very much and have worked very hard at your goals for it as well as done it very economicaly and I really do think that is great! We obviously see the path to the ideal loudspeaker reproducer differently but that's OK and if I was close by I would love to listen to your system.
On a more serious note Claude I read about the Health issues in a later post and I hope all goes well!
mike tn

Thanks for you response and good wishes about my mom. I don't actually disagree about 2-way being easier and better vs. the way I'm doing it. Perhaps I didn't emphasize the fact that I have put together my ENTIRE system.........7 discrete channels that includes two 4-way mains, a 3-way center, and 4 two-way surrounds..........ALL HORNS. Plus, two large direct radiator passive subs with ouboard dual mono amplification for about the same price as JUST the Jubilee bass sections from a Klipsch Theater Dealer. I have paid cash for all thes parts incrementally over 2-years and mostly working off my original stock Khorn pair with single LaScala sale.

There is no question in my mind that if I had the money, I would end up with a bi-amped 2-way Jubilee and TAD berillium drivers on the 402's. I fully recognize the benefits of that setup, so it's not that I don't understand the anomalies and compromises I'm making, as you and Grasshopper suggest. We honestly have no disagreement at all. Its just that I have more space in the room, and more time, than I have money for right now. Nothing more. Despite the odd looking collection of "a dog from every town" in my setup, it sounds really amazing on movies and concert DVD's as well as LP's and CD's in 2-channel mode. It's WAY better than what I started out with in 2007 (30 years of Khorn LaScala with PWK's resistor box for mono center).I have everyone on this Forum including you, to thank for fueling my quest.

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

ClaudeJ1 — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:08:43 GMT

mark1101:
Out of 31 sliders on each channel of my graphic EQ, exactly 4 are above 0 (boosted). 2 are near the crossover point and 2 are at the extreme low end (20 and 30 hz). Everything else is a "cut". I have been very careful to try and minimize any distortion via EQ. Obviously just having the EQ unit itself adds some small amount. But it is not because I boosted anything significantly. With my McIntosh equipment it is very clean. Come to think of it it was very clean with my Peach and Latino Dynaco too.
The HF EQ is basically just for the K402. The curve is so smooth the driver really isn't getting much correction. The EQ curve peaks at 0 around 10K then turns downward slightly. I am never boosting anything in the HF (above 500hz) in my setup.
So my EQ was done with a minimalist approach based on room measurement and a few absorbent panels and some diffusion.
Claude you are right, the mic was 3 ft. from my speakers at the height of the center of the K402. The curves I posted are highly averaged and then smoothed as well as I posted. So what you see is a heck of a lot of "room" in that curve. No doubt.

My red curve from last year was 1/12th octave resolution and is not smoothed at all., nor is there any EQ of any kind. It also take into account the effect of the room (strictly frequency response) since it's done 15 feet from the corners that are 13.3 feet apart on a wall. So it looks way worse than yours........what PWK used to call a "dirty curve."

It represents a setup that is way worse than I have now, and it was still good sound. All of the further improvements I have made since then have had smaller increments. The biggest improvement over my old stock Khrons is the large format drivers and horns in the treble sections, of which, there are 3. Part of the efficiency-bandwidth equations that Don Keele talked about in his papers.

Mark as far as your EQ goes, plus/minus 6 db boosts and cuts from a reasonably good starting point is certainly not going to tax a system with high efficiency in a home. After all these systems are designed to put out 20-40 acoustic watts, when we only need about 1 Acoustic watt when we are "cranking" indoors.

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

mikebse2a3 — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 04:21:07 GMT

ClaudeJ1:
This is BY FAR the best sounding setup I have ever had, with careful matching of all components has taken me over 2 years to evolve while maintaining ALL of PWK's principles of good sound.

I responded:

All designs are a balance in compromises! I would differ with you on following all of PWK's principles of good sound and call your attention to the fact that PWK always expressed and designed for as few horns/crossover points as possible to acheive each systems design goals. To overlook this is to overlook the history and orginal design goals of the Klipschorn. The fact that his personel decision and design goal for the improvement of the Klipschorn was a return to a 2-way Horn system is a clear indication of his principles for sound and what direction improvement would come in and it wasn't to complicate and make it a 4-way design and then try to make all 4 Horns acoustically sum again.

Claude then responded with:

Well that statement simply isn't true. We are all in the Pro Loudspeaker arena here with large format drivers, including you. The Jubilee bin is in the Theater line. the TSCM was nothing but a black Khorn bass bin with built-in corners and a beefier woofer married to large format tops. The MCM 1900 evolved into a 4-way system, and the final/ultimatedesign (some of Roys's best work with PWK's blessing) was the KP-600 modular system which is 5-way and considered the best by many. The flagship of the company currently (it's in the LOBBY of Indy HQ for a reason) is a 4-way, so your comment is simply not true. If I see an economic and sonic benefit to reducing the number of components in the future, I will do so, but I sure as heck won't do it with 2 berrylium diaphagmmed drivers that cost more than my entire used system and still need a ton of PEQ to work right.

Well Claude we will have to just disagree because I believe my statement is backed by the facts as I know them and is very true in principle and reality. Roy himself has said the reason the theater Jubilee is a 3-way is because of the increased SPL needed in a theater enviroment and in his opinion for home use performance is superior in the 2-way version that many of us own..

As far as your comment; If I see an economic and sonic benefit to reducing the number of components in the future, I will do so, but I sure as heck won't do it with 2 berrylium diaphagmmed drivers that cost more than my entire used system and still need a ton of PEQ to work right.

The PEQ comment is just a sign that you really don't grasp what is being done with the K402/TAD 4002. Value versus Cost of the TADs in your comment is a personel choice but performance itself is a different matter Claude and the K402/TAD has a clarity and coherence that must be experienced and to make comments such as you have based on no experience of them(if you have used the TADs then I apoligize but you have said nothing to indicate you have any real amount of experience with them) is really meaningless.

Again Claude my orginal response to your post wasn't about wether the MWM, KHorn,or Jubilee was the better reproducer but instead about the ways you were forming your many conclusions and stating them as fact which I believe to be flawed/wrong based on again the reasons I orginally stated.

The above being said again Claude you obviously enjoy your system very much and have worked very hard at your goals for it as well as done it very economicaly and I really do think that is great! We obviously see the path to the ideal loudspeaker reproducer differently but that's OK and if I was close by I would love to listen to your system.

On a more serious note Claude I read about the Health issues in a later post and I hope all goes well!

mike tn

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

mark1101 — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:52:49 GMT

I think that the most important thing is that you enjoy it. I didn't take the same path as anyone else either. I have 1/2 a Jub, MWMs, custom passives, and outboard EQ. No one that I know of has tried that. I could care less. I love it.

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

ClaudeJ1 — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:43:04 GMT

mark1101:
Claude you are right, the mic was 3 ft. from my speakers at the height of the center of the K402. The curves I posted are highly averaged and then smoothed as well as I posted. So what you see is a heck of a lot of "room" in that curve. No doubt.

Well based on our conversations and your great attitude, I'm sure I would be very impressed listening to your setup.

I just don't understand why everyone seems to want to criticize the differnt path I have taken, and tell me it's all "wrong," especially for how cheap it was for me to do 7.1 and 2-channel in the same receiver and plate amplifier setup. Maybe in the absolute theoretical sense, it has lots of warts that I can't hear of don't have insturmentation to measure. But either way I have achieved the best sound I have ever owned with simple components operated in their most linear range with a reasonable alignment of voice coils from the listineing chair. The dynamic realism and imaging is there with whatever imperfections are deemed to exist by the naysayers. I love the sound and I didn't mortgage my house to do it, and that is what matters.I gurantee that it beats my old stock Khorns hands down by a huge margin for a lot less money than any other solution.

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

mark1101 — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:28:03 GMT

Out of 31 sliders on each channel of my graphic EQ, exactly 4 are above 0 (boosted). 2 are near the crossover point and 2 are at the extreme low end (20 and 30 hz). Everything else is a "cut". I have been very careful to try and minimize any distortion via EQ. Obviously just having the EQ unit itself adds some small amount. But it is not because I boosted anything significantly. With my McIntosh equipment it is very clean. Come to think of it it was very clean with my Peach and Latino Dynaco too.

The HF EQ is basically just for the K402. The curve is so smooth the driver really isn't getting much correction. The EQ curve peaks at 0 around 10K then turns downward slightly. I am never boosting anything in the HF (above 500hz) in my setup.

So my EQ was done with a minimalist approach based on room measurement and a few absorbent panels and some diffusion.

Claude you are right, the mic was 3 ft. from my speakers at the height of the center of the K402. The curves I posted are highly averaged and then smoothed as well as I posted. So what you see is a heck of a lot of "room" in that curve. No doubt.

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

ClaudeJ1 — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 02:05:10 GMT

Islander:
Oh, good. I always had 2-way speakers until I got the 3-way La Scalas, which sounded great, but I found that going from them to the 2-way JubScalas was a big step up in sound quality. In my room, with my amps, with the 09/2008 Dx program, the high end sounds fine, with quite realistic cymbals and the like, so no grumbles here.

Like I said in my prior post, the reason for the better sound was NOT the bass bins, but in the Large Format drivers and a better horn.......midrange again.

Mark EQ's his MWM bins and his TADs in the 402, which cost more than my entire 7.1 system, receiver included. I'm sure it sound way better than unequalized MWM bins, but if he's EQing that much low end on a short horn, the distortion must increase at least a "tad." LOL, but with 4-15" drivers, it's probably just fine.

Re: How Long is a Klipshorn Bass Section?

ClaudeJ1 — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 02:01:00 GMT

mark1101:
Here's what you can do with a little EQ. MWM / K402 (TAD4002). Both channels shown.

I think you used more than "a little EQ." Besides, it looks to me like your microphone was fairly close to the horns when measured because a high end that flat at the listening position would drill holes in your ears. Flat power response usually shows a rolloff in the high frequencies at the listening posigion. But, that is one smooth curve nonetheless.

My curve is over a year old and doesn't represent what I have achieved recently, so I will post that when it's done. Right now we are dealing with severe medical issues in the family so this audio stuff has to take a back seat. Also, the reason I posted it was to show the NATURAL behavior of the MWM bins without EQ, not to show the ultimate flat curve.