twistedcrankcammer:

KPT884 may go lower, but as Roy pointed out, 30Hz will cover all your musical Bass, so except for synthasized suff, and movie explosion, the 682 and 684 will put out more musical Bass.

Just because a sub doesn't dig as low, doesn't mean it is going to sound more musical. In fact, there are a few good reasons why it might be the other way around depending on the compromises chosen to make the other sub go lower.

In the case of the 884 and 684, I would say that they are both equally musical....and it's a no brainer if you matched the radiating surface area (so two 884's vs a single 684).

DrWho:

twistedcrankcammer:

KPT884 may go lower, but as Roy pointed out, 30Hz will cover all your musical Bass, so except for synthasized suff, and movie explosion, the 682 and 684 will put out more musical Bass.

Just because a sub doesn't dig as low, doesn't mean it is going to sound more musical. In fact, there are a few good reasons why it might be the other way around depending on the compromises chosen to make the other sub go lower.

In the case of the 884 and 684, I would say that they are both equally musical....and it's a no brainer if you matched the radiating surface area (so two 884's vs a single 684).

 

Who,

Who said anything about a single 684??

This all refers originally back to 4 EP2 18's in a pair of KP-680-SW and 4 15's in a pair of KP-650-LF cabinets that are part of a KP-600 system as having the most Bass and Mid Bass of any Klipsch speaker out there. Yes, the EP2s are a substitute, but the 600's come with 4 18's and 4 15's. In any other senario, such as JC's MCM 4 Grands, you will have to add other speakers Klipsch or otherwise to come up with as much Bass. Then it becomes a VERY VERY STUPID argument of this speaker plus 4 884's, well then, what about this speaker with 8 884's and so on. The musical statement was a pair of 684's vs: a pair of 884's, and in that scenario, surface area speaks for itself. The only reson 684's were ever brought up is that you woul have to add a pair of them to a pair of MCM stacks to come up with similar BASS output of a KP-600 system.

                                                                        Roger 

There is nothing magical about the bass in the KP600 system. The dual 15's are a midbass module and only get down to ~100Hz. The dual 18's are just that....dual 18's.

The reason I said to match two 884's to a single 684 is to match the radiating surface area, which makes more sense from a tool perspective than to match the number of cabinets. Perhaps you would prefer to match cabinet volume instead? That works for me too (and rules out the 884).

Btw, the 884 is flat to 30Hz and about 10dB down at 20Hz. The 684 is 10dB down at 30Hz....so probably only flat to around 45Hz.

What you're probably noticing as "more musical" bass is that the bassbin is probably hyped up around 6-10dB relative to the midrange, and with a 100Hz xover, you're looking at extra output from ~45Hz to 100Hz. That's pretty much where most of the girth in older 70's/80's kick drums reside. Bass guitar doesn't usually go below 45Hz either....and most bass cabs are 10dB down by 40Hz too...

If you're listening to modern music (which I do), then you're looking at bass cabs that are 10dB down at 30Hz, and kick drums with a ton of output even into the 20's. You have to sacrifice maxSPL to dig lower, yet all the modern top-of-the line touring PA's are flat into the 20's. Quadrupling your number of cabs or your excursion/amplifier power to match the SPL is no small investment.

Btw, surface area isn't the entire story....linear range of excursion is the other half. If you double the surface area, but halve the linear excursion, then you end up with the same SPL for the same level of distortion.

I will have to look into this line. Impressive.

                                        Jim

Jim Cornell:

I will have to look into this line. Impressive.

                                        Jim

 

Jim,

If you go back out to the "FORUM" section and look under "PRO AUDIO AND TOURING", the click onto "VINTAGE VAULT", then click onto "WELCOME TO THE VINTAGE VAULT" the 5yh post down is by KHarmonDDS and shows Kevins amp rack, his two KP-600 stacks, his two MCM-1900 stacks, and my as just purchased KP-600s needing new 18 inch drivers. The KP-600 system with the flyware was $25,000 when they were sold new by Klipsch, for two stacks, or the six cabinets that it takes to make two stacks.

                                         Roger

DrWho:

What you're probably noticing as "more musical" bass is that the bassbin is probably hyped up around 6-10dB relative to the midrange, and with a 100Hz xover, you're looking at extra output from ~45Hz to 100Hz. That's pretty much where most of the girth in older 70's/80's kick drums reside. Bass guitar doesn't usually go below 45Hz either....and most bass cabs are 10dB down by 40Hz too...

If you're listening to modern music (which I do), then you're looking at bass cabs that are 10dB down at 30Hz, and kick drums with a ton of output even into the 20's. You have to sacrifice maxSPL to dig lower, yet all the modern top-of-the line touring PA's are flat into the 20's. Quadrupling your number of cabs or your excursion/amplifier power to match the SPL is no small investment.

So are the modern drums physically different from the older ones?  The only different-looking kick drum I've noticed is the one used by the drummer in Sigur Ros.  It's relatively small in diameter, like many jazz drummers use, but about double the depth/length of a typical drum, and it gives a really big sound.

Those KP600's are something else. WOW  Dual 18 subs? dam

I do like the MCM as well I always did.

Roger

Are those TSCM in you profile? I like those also. At one time I had only 1.

                                                  Jim

Islander:

So are the modern drums physically different from the older ones?  The only different-looking kick drum I've noticed is the one used by the drummer in Sigur Ros.  It's relatively small in diameter, like many jazz drummers use, but about double the depth/length of a typical drum, and it gives a really big sound.

 

I dunno if I would say physically different other than the resonators are tuned differently...that and less pillows are used. It also matters where you put the microphone.

Jim Cornell:

Roger

Are those TSCM in you profile? I like those also. At one time I had only 1.

                                                  Jim

 

Jim,

I never filled out my system profile. I am the guy who kept emailing you if you had any of the pieces from the high frequency bin like horn section for the dual tweeter or 400 horn or it's 4 into one collector or the blown woofer from the TSCM Bass Bin that you had to get rid of.

My 600's are the ones that are missing the 18 inch drivers. This picture was taken just a few days after I picked them up in Texas. The nice looking set of KP-600s and the pair of MCM stacks belong to my budy Kevin Harmon. I live in Ohio, and just got home with my KP-600s, but I was in Louisianna for work for a little over 3 months, and was blessed to only be 7 miles from Kevins house where I was staying.

Myself, I own 9 of the TSCM Bass Bin sections, but only 5 of the Top or high frequency sections. The TSCM is the Pro version of a K-Horn as you are aware, these are  the speaker you see in my avitar for those not familiar with them. The TSCM is how I first met Kevin, as he also has a pair of them. I sold my K-Horns on EBay to raise some of the cash I needed to purchase the 600's, So right now, I own the 9 TSCM Bass Bins, the 5 TSCM Hi-Frequency cabinettes, a single K-Horn that I will be selling (do you need a third K-Horn?), a pair of KP-600s that are works in progress, and a few odds and ends towards building my own MCM stacks. I had a couple of LaScalas as well, but those went to my brother in law for helping me go pick up all the TSCM stuff (minus the pair I already had) in Pensylvania. I have an assortment of extra Klipsch woofers as well.

Kevin, was fortunate enough to have personally known Paul Klipsch, and there is a picture of Paul and Kevin at Pauls widows house. Those were Kevins KP-600s in that photo with his new amp rack for them. Those are Kevins MCM-1900 stacks in that photo, which he bought off of Michael Cholter here on the forum. Kevin also has a pair of Jubilees with a KP-684 in his man cave, a pair of TSCMs, two pair of Klipsch Horns (one set from the 50s), a pair of Chorus IIs, a pair of Klipsch Short Horns, some KP-301s, and a pair of Herisies as well as 3 other Klipsch powered sub woofers. His brothers and his parents own Klipsch as well.

As far as I am aware, there are only 5 guys here on the forum that have a pair of KP-600s; Michael Cholter, Kevin Harmon, Bill Hendricks, a guy who has a set of them in his basement, and myself. I have been fortunate enough to meet all of these people in person except for the guy that has a pair in his basement.

I would like to personally thank Kevin and Bill, for the shared experience of picking up and assembling their KP-600s (it will always be a memorable experience) and I can't thank my buddy Kevin enough for helping me pick up my KP-600s, for bringing me into his home to meet his wife and kids, for introducing me to his wonderful parents, 3 brothers, and two sisters, for many hours of listening and auditioning all of his big speakers(by the way JC, if you read this, we spent several sessions listening to you funk disc on the Jubilees and the KP-684. It really shows off the system). but most of all, I would like to thank Kevin for being a great friend, for including me into his family and making the time away from my kids a little less hard.

                                                                                           Roger

Oh ok Roger

Yea at the time I gave 600.00 for 1 TSCM speaker. It was heavily damaged. The K-55-M 4 driver manifold was broken. Also at the time my Klipschorns had the older style K-77, they were'nt a mud magnet.

I sold off the K-55-M drivers here on the forum, that I got with the TSCM. 1 of the drivers had a displaced magnet.

Anyway. what I did was modify the sqwauker horn for 1 driver, and I rebuilt the top section and ran it as a center channel.

I did run into some room issues here, and I remember posting the single TSCM and got no replies. So I took apart the top section, and placed the Mud k-77 tweeters into my klipschorns, at the time 1975 models.

I dont really know what I did with the dual K-77 manifold?

I was doing something stupid with the woofer, and I accidently tore the cone cutting my hand wide open, on the top rim of the voice coil. I quit drinking shortly after.

Anyway, I then installed 1 Earthquake 15inch car sub into the bass bin, and then bridged a pyramid pro audio amp to it, making it a subwoofer.

I had the biggest freaking subwoofer around. This lasted for quite a while, and then i just decided to scrap the bass bin, considering I really had nothing left, driver wise, for the TSCM.

Since then I have parted with my Klipschorns, and traded them to a local freind for KLF-20, RF-7, and a pioneer SX1050 receiver. At almost a year later, I decided to trade the RF-7 for a set of oak Cornwalls with the same person. I have the KLF-20, and Cornwalls as we speak. I just replaced the oil caps in the Cornwalls, and havent done anything else at this point. I did miss the Heritage sound.

In 1999-2000 I had 4 Cornwalls, and I should have just stayed with that, but of coarse I had to travel the courious route. My listening room will not compensate for klipschorns, its too small. I always knew this, but I loved them very much. My neighbors were complaining very consistent, so that is where the trades came into place. Besided my wife covered her ears everytime I listened to them for 7 years.

Earlier this decade I started out with a set of type D Klipschorns, I was famous on the Forum for a while, when I was modifying them. I modified an Altec 511b horn to the top section, and I had the K-horns almost 6 feet in height.

In the process of doing this I purchased the 1975 walnut Klipschorns, so I had 4 Klipschorns at the time. I have decided to undo my modifications on the type D and built them into an original Type C.

After I was finished, I listened to them for a while, but I never really ran all 4 Klipschorns at once. I actually built a wall across my listening room, that closed off the kitchen, so I would have 2 more corners.

The TYPE D Klipschorns turned out georgeous, I at that time met up with a freind in Denver, Marksdad, and traded a set of Cornwall 2's plus cash for them.

I was down to the 1975 Klipshorns and the Cornwall 2's. Now at this time I had another issue. I took down my temp wall, and had no other place to put the Klipschorns, except for in my bedroom. So once in a while I would swap around the Cornwalls and Klipschorns. I did this a few times, then the Cornwalls sat and did nothing for about a year, I got stupid and sold them.

So to make a long story short, this is what happened over those years.

I have the Cornwalls, KLF-20, and KG 5.5s here. Also a full Klipsch 7.1 surround.

Money spent, is money missed.

                                                     Regards  Jim

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 Generally the pitch of a drum is determined by the diameter of it's head. Those smaller kicks can also give great sound (although not as low) if they are miced and eq'd properly. You may be hearing the click, or punch of the kick, along with some reverb at the sound board if it sounds REALLY HUGE. They can also tuned as low as they can go, gated, and possibly given reinforcement by triggering synthesized drum or by use of a subharmonic synthesizer like the DBX120

 

I agree completely with Doc as the musicality of bass and what is really 'required'. This column started with a pretty simple question about 'most' bass (base- sic) so let's not bicker about apples and oranges.

I have heard the 884 LF and although it's not as powerful of output as some of the other models, it's LF is full and rich and tight. Just because a speaker dives down low does not mean that it has to be sloppy. I'm working with a guy who has a PA system that had dual 12" horn loaded for subs and it's incredible. So you never know. 

Honestly I'm not quite happy with the KP682 bass compared to the MWM punch. There's just something very magical about bass coming through a properly designed horn. I think it's the low level of distortion that pleases my ears. 'Effortless' keeps coming to mind. Large drivers in bass reflex cabinets beating themselves to death just isn't as pretty.

 "I was doing something stupid with the woofer, and I accidently tore the cone cutting my hand wide open, on the top rim of the voice coil. I quit drinking shortly after."

 

Amen brother 

Michael

colterphoto1:

 Generally the pitch of a drum is determined by the diameter of it's head. Those smaller kicks can also give great sound (although not as low) if they are miced and eq'd properly. You may be hearing the click, or punch of the kick, along with some reverb at the sound board if it sounds REALLY HUGE. They can also tuned as low as they can go, gated, and possibly given reinforcement by triggering synthesized drum or by use of a subharmonic synthesizer like the DBX120

 

I agree completely with Doc as the musicality of bass and what is really 'required'. This column started with a pretty simple question about 'most' bass (base- sic) so let's not bicker about apples and oranges.

I have heard the 884 LF and although it's not as powerful of output as some of the other models, it's LF is full and rich and tight. Just because a speaker dives down low does not mean that it has to be sloppy. I'm working with a guy who has a PA system that had dual 12" horn loaded for subs and it's incredible. So you never know. 

Honestly I'm not quite happy with the KP682 bass compared to the MWM punch. There's just something very magical about bass coming through a properly designed horn. I think it's the low level of distortion that pleases my ears. 'Effortless' keeps coming to mind. Large drivers in bass reflex cabinets beating themselves to death just isn't as pretty.

 

Michael,

I am not bickering, that is why I stopped replying about that with Mike. The orriginal question was what speaker has the most Bass and mid Bass. I take the KP-600 as a single Klipsch speaker SYSTEM, and as a single system, I think it fills the bill for the answer. Nothing "Magical" about that.

Of much more importance to myself is finding the final 2 HF sections for my TSCM 7.1, although I do think Indy Roger came up with a good substitute.

My second priority is to get the KP-600s up and running.

Third priority is to keep chipping away, trying to accumulate the parts for some MCMs of my own. If I ever complete the stacks, I agree with you totaly about the MWM Binns. I have already talked with Kevin about discussing with Roy of parameters for building my own MWM Binn with dual 18s.

On a final note, I am sorry I was not able to make it to your Indy Klipsch fest, but my Mom flew in for a 4 day weekend in Loisianna and brought my daughter with her.... sorry dude, no contest, not a fair fight, Klipschfest went down hard!!! It would be cool if we could all get our KP-600s up and running for next year and assemble 4 sets and maybe a cople of MCM stacks. Let's see what we can get assebled by next year!!

                                      Roger

Colin:

Fred - if you already have 7s and subs, than yes, I would explore either tube amps or upgraded crossovers to smooth the upper end peaks, I heard DeanGs and they are well worth the improvement!

In 2004, Colin, me and a few others had the opportunity to hear the 7's driven by some nice tube gear.  We had extensive listening sessions with both stock and with the DeanG network upgrades.   It was night and day, ....It was the difference between apples and chainsaws. (IMHO) 

You know how (at volume), the RF-7 mids/top start to chew on your pant legs? That can go away. Don't walk, but run to Dean for his RF-7 crossovers. 

Dean, please mail the check to .............   No joke, I couldn't own the 7's without his networks.

All said from a two channel point of view.

tc

 

 

tc