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Room Treatment Help

Last post 01-22-2008 2:17 PM by seti. 23 replies.
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  • 12-31-2007 7:25 PM In reply to

    Re: Room Treatment Help

    Another shot of right wall.

    You can see why they really hate to shift the Video setup to the right wall.

     

    Marion begining to look at the ETC with RPusD.




  • 12-31-2007 7:30 PM In reply to

    Re: Room Treatment Help

    Left Wall / Stairs  and my Linda (see real evidence you can have a girlfriend or wife and Jubilees) with Marion and Becky's beautiful Jubilee.

     

    Becky and Linda the Jub GirlsBig Smile

    Hey Richard can you get your wife to pose with the Jubs?Surprise

     

    mike tn




  • 01-01-2008 6:24 AM In reply to

    • Cask05
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on 10-14-2007
    • Arlington, TX
    • Posts 222

    Re: Room Treatment Help

    Colin:

    RealTraps has a product similar to the ones you chose and a room like yours:

     

    http://www.realtraps.com/howto.htm

     

    They say “Generally speaking, most rooms need as many bass traps as you can fit and afford. Although it is definitely possible to make a room too dead at midrange and high frequencies, you probably can't have too much low frequency absorption. The effectiveness of bass traps is directly related to how much of the room's total surface area you treat, which includes the walls, floor, and ceiling.”

     

    In stereo speak, the front wall is behind the equipment, while the back wall is behind your head. My guess is that your high, angled attic ceiling on the front wall provides excellent reflections, directing sound down towards the listener. While high, angled ceiling on the back wall greatly confounds the sound, sending late reflections that muddy the music.

     

    As you can see from the pictures at the RealTraps site, their panels are distributed not just on the back wall, but also at the peak and the corners.

     

    BTW, what color fabric and frame did you get?  And what is the material inside the panels?

     

    I was very surprised at the effectiveness of two Ready Acoustics "Ultra Bass Traps" in the front corners above the speakers for my room. Rigma - I understand this won't really work for your pitched ceiling - there isn't really a good corner at the speakers but any corner is probably much better than a floor/wall line or a flat-wall-mounted trap.   

    In looking at the pix of your room I see your listening position fairly close to the back wall.  I don't know if traps or diffusers are going to strongly affect the balance for this position. If the path length from your speakers to the pitched ceiling behind your head then down to your listening position is less than about 50 feet, then that reflective pitched ceiling area behind your head probably isn't your friend.  If you experience loss of bass in any position then I think you are probably sitting in some sort of mode null--and this is almost inconceivable for extreme low-bass frequencies but check those ceiling reflection modes and consider trial bass traps hung up high with diffusers/reflectors hung below that.  I really can't find much in the way of a deep bass null point in my listening area but I don't have a pitched ceiling.  That in itself is probably a clue--arranging reflective panels to approximate a flat ceiling could be one thread of pursuit.

    [Update: I see from the pix that your ceiling has a horizontal peak section.  I'm sure you've thought about it but suspending traps from that center section would be a prime location. Some pretty aggressive wall-mount diffusers along the ceiling (both surfaces) might also help to break up those strong reflections.  Try shining a flashlight from each speaker location upwards from horizontal to 30 degrees up angle at night with lights out in different directions.  Look at the reflection bounce areas of max brightness - those are candidate areas for diffusers (higher frequencies).

    From Geddes, et al:

    "It appears then that the best rooms for serious listening would have a great deal of low frequency absorption accompanied by very low amounts of high frequency absorption (i.e., the exact opposite of what is usually done). Also consider the fact that absorbing material placed in a small room is orders of magnitude more effective than this same material placed in a larger room. That’s because virtually all sound absorption takes place at the enclosure boundaries and a sound wave in a small room strikes these boundaries many more times in a given time period than it does in a large room. Thus, even small amounts of sound absorption in a small room can lead to an over-damped condition - especially at the higher frequencies.

    The earlier and the greater in level the first reflections are, the worse they are. This is true up to a point - about 20 ms - after which the perception of a refection is usually positive and perceived as early reverberation and spaciousness. In small rooms, the first reflections can never occur later than 10-20 ms (basically the definition of a small room), so the first reflections in small rooms must be thought of as problems that cause coloration and image blurring. These reflections must be considered in the design.

    Reflections become less of a problem as coloration and image shift at lower frequencies. Below about 500 Hz. early reflections are not as much of an issue. The ear has a longer integration time at lower frequencies and it has a poorer ability to localize resulting in a lower sensitivity to early reflections. Image location is strongly weighted towards higher frequencies."]

    Regards,

    Chris 

    "Better is the enemy of Good Enough." Voltaire

    K402/K69 Jubilees, Crown XTi's and very little else.
    Filed under: ,
  • 01-01-2008 1:31 PM In reply to

    Re: Room Treatment Help

     If you have a free minute, give me a call back.

    I think I have a solution that can make that room really compliment those great looking speakers!!!!Big Smile

    Big Smile 

    Nobody gets in to see the Wizard.
    Not Nobody. Not No How.

    The Law of Conservation of Ignorance: A false conclusion once arrived at & widely accepted is not easily dislodged, & the less it is understood the more tenaciously it is held.

    Scarecrow: I haven't got a brain... only straw.
    Dorothy: How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?
    Scarecrow: I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking... don't they?

    Chico: Hey, wait, wait. What does this say here? This thing here.
    Groucho: Oh, that? Oh, that's the usual clause. That's in every contract. That just says uh, it says uh, "If any of the parties participating in this contract is shown not to be in their right mind, the entire agreement is automatically nullified."
    Chico: Well, I don't know...
    Groucho: It's all right, that's, that's in every contract. That's, that's what they call a 'sanity clause'.
    Chico: Ha ha ha ha ha! You can't fool me! There ain't no Sanity Clause!

    Offers not good after curfew in sectors R or N,.
  • 01-02-2008 5:23 PM In reply to

    • Coytee
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2004
    • Knoxville, TN
    • Posts 5,725

    Re: Room Treatment Help

    mikebse2a3:
    Hey Richard can you get your wife to pose with the Jubs?Surprise

    Would it be politically incorrect to have her standing there with a scowel on her face flipping me (the camera) the bird with both hands?

    Cause I could probably get that shot!

    Surprise Wink

    Professor Thump told me to take a Custom 3 and stick it in my ear. I did...and it sounded great!!!

  • 01-02-2008 5:25 PM In reply to

    • Coytee
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on 04-17-2004
    • Knoxville, TN
    • Posts 5,725

    Re: Room Treatment Help

    mas:
    a solution that can make that room really compliment those great looking speakers!!!!

    Ohhhhhhhh, ya gonna share?

    Tongue Tied

    Professor Thump told me to take a Custom 3 and stick it in my ear. I did...and it sounded great!!!

  • 01-04-2008 6:03 PM In reply to

    Re: Room Treatment Help

    In many cases, low modal issues in (smaller rooms) need to be addressed before anything. This typically consists of straddling 4" thick acoustical absorbers across vertical corners (first) and then treating early reflection points. Both issues can be solved by using "broadband" absorbers that concentrate on picking up low frequencies but that truly absorb across the entire frequency band.

    Another thing to consider is room symmetry. Indeed setting up your main speakers to fire down the long axis of the room is desirable, however left and right symmetry may be equally important. Structural inconsistencies (left and right of your listening position) might cause you to struggle with your desired stereo imaging, and if this can be corrected by setting your system up in another direction, it may mean as much to your overall experience as setting up your system on the greater length of your room.

    Broadband bass trapping in corners with at least 4" acoustical absorption medium/ DIY or factory made bass traps will go a long way in reducing room resonances and help focus your overall sound. This is turn will help create a better, more enjoyable listening experience, and perhaps help to encourage other to bring the POPCORN AND BEER!

    Here are a couple of pages that clarify what bass traps are and explain "early reflections":

    https://www.readyacoustics.com/index.php?go=acoustics-advice.what-is-a-bass-trap

    https://www.readyacoustics.com/index.php?go=acoustics-advice.early-reflections

    Consider jumping over to the Bass Traps Network forum for additional information and DIY Acoustical absorber plans:
    http://www.basstraps.net

    Here is a free DIY Bass Trap tutorial I created at YouTube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyYUpkpL0gw

    And this link: http://forum.studiotips.com This forum is frequented by real acousticians and acoustical engineers, etc. It is also non-commercial and very, very informative.

    If I can help in any way, please let me know.

    Thank you,

    Joel DuBay
    readyacoustics.com
    Come and see us at the 2008 CES in Las Vegas Jan 7th-11th ______________________________________
    Joel DuBay
    President/ CEO
    Ready Acoustics
  • 01-04-2008 7:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Room Treatment Help

    Maybe I should just stay out of this...

    Yes, LF room modes are an issue that should be addressed in all small acoustical spaces.

    And the simplest approach is to treat the vertical corners (and secondarily, the horizontal corners of the room with Roxul or OC705 wedge traps. Further and more problematic anomalies are perhaps best addressed with a combination of measurements and  an appropriate ly designed Helmholtz resonator (or which there are a variety of types requiring calculated tuning).

    And this is an example of a classic room where the classic room mode calculators are all but worthless. This room features a series of what can be considered as coupled spaces, each reinforcing a slightly different spectrum of modes, thus requiring measurements to identify the actual resultants which are far too complex to model and calculate. 

    Additionally, assuming all of the LF modes are sufficiently addressed, 'we' are still left with the SIGNIFICANT issue of early arriving first order reflection off of the back ceiling. And this reflection will be a hard reflection containing much energy and focused almost directly on the seating position which will substantially impair the quality of listening.

    Thus the goal here is not to simply absorb all of the acoustic energy, thus rendering the room dead and very small feeling. Rather the goal is to strategically redirect the energy as much as is possible in order to reduce the intensity of the first order early arriving reflection and to return as much of this energy back into the space by 'breaking up' the focused specular reflection in to a more diffuse  acoustic field,  and thus contributing to a well-behaved semi-reverberant acoustic field that decays exponentially with time - the result being that this energy will contribute to the sense of space that is pleasantly perceived.

    So, the challenge is, how do we break up the direct radiated acoustic energy that is being reflected toward the seating position by such a large planar surface without simply using brut force absorption and rendering the reflection muted, and the room in large measure, dead.

    Thus, while strategically applied absorption can play a role, it should be one that is used only to the degree that is is necessary to damp the energy that cannot be effectively diffused.

    Thus the challenge, how to effectively DIFFUSE the energy  using the minimum amount of absorption necessary without spending $100K to do so (and turning the space into a museum of modern art)! Hence the role of a bit - OK, let's be up front here - ALLOT of creative thinking.

    Wink 

    Nobody gets in to see the Wizard.
    Not Nobody. Not No How.

    The Law of Conservation of Ignorance: A false conclusion once arrived at & widely accepted is not easily dislodged, & the less it is understood the more tenaciously it is held.

    Scarecrow: I haven't got a brain... only straw.
    Dorothy: How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?
    Scarecrow: I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking... don't they?

    Chico: Hey, wait, wait. What does this say here? This thing here.
    Groucho: Oh, that? Oh, that's the usual clause. That's in every contract. That just says uh, it says uh, "If any of the parties participating in this contract is shown not to be in their right mind, the entire agreement is automatically nullified."
    Chico: Well, I don't know...
    Groucho: It's all right, that's, that's in every contract. That's, that's what they call a 'sanity clause'.
    Chico: Ha ha ha ha ha! You can't fool me! There ain't no Sanity Clause!

    Offers not good after curfew in sectors R or N,.
  • 01-22-2008 2:17 PM In reply to

    • seti
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on 07-06-2004
    • Arcansaw 1st home of Klipsch
    • Posts 4,193

    Re: Room Treatment Help

     

    Hey Marion how is your room coming together? Great room and so much Heritage gear :)
    "First off, I don't even consider myself a member of the general public. I know that my own requirements in a loudspeaker are those I've discussed. judging from what contact I have with the general public, though, I conclude that 99 percent of the general public doesn't even know what accuracy of reproduction is. My company is for the one percent composed of perfectionists who buy these expensive speakers." PWK

    DON'T BE EVIL
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