wallflower:

I really appreciate all the comments about Jubilee speakers!

It seems there are a lot of comments about dynamics, low distortion, bass response, etc..., however I haven't noticed comments about the tonal character of instruments (e.g. the sound of a Fender Stratocaster on a Fender Twin Reverb amp, or a Gibson Les Paul on a Marshall Stack, or a 1936 Martin D-28, or a 1923 Gibson Lloyd Loar mandolin, or a Steinway Grand Piano, etc...).  I've realized that electronics play a large roll in providing a natural or "real" sense of the tone and character of these particular instruments.  Can the Jubilee owners speak to the unique characteristics that the combination of Crown SS gear and Jubilees provide in this regard?

Thanks!

Hi wallflower

You've asked good questions but I'm not sure how I (as a Jubilee owner) could best answer them for you. I'm not a musician or someone who has studied the sounds of different instruments to give a comparison like you have asked for.

What I can tell you is on very good recordings where the detail is captured to allow someone to hear these characteristics I'm positive it is available. I have no problem distinguishing similar instruments from each other with their different tunings and tonality. On good recordings the body of instruments like guitars for example can easily be heard along with the natural decay of the notes from the instruments themselves are easily discerned. 

I can clearly focus in on individual Vocals and Instruments like for example Buddy Guy's playing on Muddy Waters Folk Singer for instance and marvel at his talent and ways of playing the notes at that time compared to his more rescent recording ( Blues Singer ) which is one of my all time favorite performances and recordings.

Very good Piano recordings are reproduced as well as I have ever heard and what really stands out to me is that the piano always sounds complete with detail and clarity and the artist's emotion and style of playing the notes are easily discerned across the whole instrument's range.

Vocals! now this is where I live. Vocals male and female are among the best reproduced I have ever heard and to hear several vocalist or a group of singers manitain each individuals charateristics with clarity and tonality so effortlessly from quite to very loud is probably what I respect the most about the Jubilee.  One of my current favorite recordings for vocals is BB King and Eric Clapton (Riding with the King) and to hear BB King really letting it out just moves me every time I hear it. So I guess I would sum vocals reproduction up as, on really good recordings of artist you enjoy the Male and Female Vocals are really reproduced naturally and with the details reproduced that will move you emotionaly.

As with any high resolution system the Jubilee will easily let you hear the mistakes and bad choices made in poor recordings.

You asked about hearing the differences in equipment used with the Jubilee and I personelly use an Active EV DX38 Crossover with Cary CAD 2A3 P/P Tube Amp on the LF Horn and a modified AES SE-1 2A3 Single Ended Tube Amp for the HF Horn for my system. I have also listened to the Crown Equipment(very good sound with a great price to performance ratio) mentioned before as well as other tube amps with the Jubilee both with active and passive crossovers. I personely prefer the Active with my Tube Amps setup and yes you can hear the differences with any of these setups. What I wouldn't try to tell anyone is which is best because I believe that for many reasons that really does come down to personel taste.

I want to add a couple of other observation about the Jubilee/K402 system. It's a two way that doesn't sound like a two way! This system sounds like it sings with One Voice! If you have ever heard the Quad ESL 63 USA then you will have an idea of what I mean.

The system also has what best I would describe as a naturally large sound. If you listen to the Jubilee in direct comparison to the KHorn for example it just has a larger soundstage(presence) for a lack of better words to describe this effect and you immediately recognize it as more natural and accurate. This effect is similar to how the Khorn sounds in comparison to the other Heritage models if that puts it in some common context to help explain what I'm describing.

mike tn

ditto to most of what Mike said

Mike,

Thanks for the thoughtful response!

As someone that plays music I'm very familiar with the instruments previously mentioned and I pay particular attention to how accurately they're reproduced.  My experiences have led me to the conclusion that speakers do have an enormous impact on our perception of the music we listen to, but the upstream electronics also play a major role in imparting a sense of accurateness to the tonality of instruments.  Without proper tonality coming from the electronics, I don't believe the speaker can do anything to make up for that sound (or lack there of).

I'm glad to know that electronics do impart different characteristics to the sound produced with Jubilees.  Judging from other comments, I was beginning to believe that Jubilees have a "life of their own" and thus no matter what feeds them they sound the same, which just didn't (and doesn't) make any sense.  Thanks for the clarification! 

Hey wallflower

So what electronics have you found to give you the most realistic reproduction and in what way was it more accurate?

mike tn

wallflower:

It seems there are a lot of comments about dynamics, low distortion, bass response, etc..., however I haven't noticed comments about the tonal character of instruments (e.g. the sound of a Fender Stratocaster on a Fender Twin Reverb amp, or a Gibson Les Paul on a Marshall Stack, or a 1936 Martin D-28, or a 1923 Gibson Lloyd Loar mandolin, or a Steinway Grand Piano, etc...).  I've realized that electronics play a large roll in providing a natural or "real" sense of the tone and character of these particular instruments.  Can the Jubilee owners speak to the unique characteristics that the combination of Crown SS gear and Jubilees provide in this regard?

I think what is often meant by "low distortion" is that the speakers are imparting much less of their own sonic signature, which means less masking of the different tonalities of different instruments. In other words, stuff sounds more like it's supposed to...Were you looking for specific examples, or were you just wondering if it wasn't all about being clean at loud levels?

As far as amps, I feel there is absolutely an audible difference when different amps are being used, but the magnitude of that difference is much smaller compared to the magnitude of difference imparted by the speakers themeselves.

Maybe I got lucky, but the last time I listened to a bunch of amps powering Jubilees I made sure I didn't know which side had which amp and even closed my eyes so that blinking lights wouldn't fake me out either...everytime I was able to identify which amp was which. Heck, I was even able to distinguish between Crown and QSC (I've long held a bias for Crown, but was kinda interested to see if I was tricking myself). One of these days I'd like to do some formal blind ABX testing, mostly because of all the experiments indicating that a difference shouldn't be heard...

With that in mind, it seems to me that the differences between amps become less dramatic when the quality of the speakers increase. I suppose it might make sense if one believes that there are thresholds of audibility for different types of distortions...like if your speakers are a touch on the harsh side and you throw on a harsh sounding amplifier, then the problem is going to compound. If you get rid of the harshness from the speakers, there is a chance that the harshness from the amplifier alone isn't enough to cross that threshold of audibility. That's not to say that the distortion of the Jubilee is inaudible, but compared to other speakers (like the Khorn), the difference is far from subtle.

In other words, I hear bigger differences between amps on the Khorns than I do on the Jubilees.

I think I can see where your concern is coming from though. When 6foot8 purchased the first pair of Jubilees (he went with a 3-way), I remember thinking that the K402 was a "PA horn" and designed for throwing the sound a long distance. I have since realized that I was sorely mistaken and that it's quite the opposite situation with the K402. But when you see people throwing "PA amps" at the speakers, I can understand that it's hard to think they're not just interested in crazy SPL. The avid anti-horn crowds have used this argument all the time, and perhaps they're justified a bit too because there's a lot of bad horns on the market (especially in the PA world). However, a good horn is a good horn...and the K402 is outstanding, especially in a small home environment - you just gotta hear it to believe it.

The biggest reason that people have been using the Crown XTi is because the benefits of an active crossover far outweigh the typical compromises that might otherwise be associated with "non-audiophile amps". I think it's been mentioned already, but the difference is night and day on vocals. People are not going with the XTi's because of their power handling...they just happen to be the cheapest way to get an active crossover with very decent sounding amps. The XTi's also offer 48dB/octave which surprisingly sounds a lot cleaner than the 24dB/octave offered by the EV Dx38. The steeper slopes clear up the depth of the soundstage and help isolate the instruments from each other - in other words, less blurring and it's easier to concentrate on the individual parts in the music.

Just to put it into perspective, you can get a pair of XTi's for under $1k, which is less than the cost of passive crossovers and less than the cost of an EV Dx38...and with the latter two options you still need an amp, or two amps if you're going active. You could throw the best amp(s) with the best crossovers at the Khorn, but it'll be cheaper to buy Jubs with a pair of XTi's and you'll still end up with significantly better sound. Would the Jubilee sound better with a better crossover and better amplification? Absolutely, but it always comes back down to your budget...and whatever other constraints that might be present.

Btw, I don't mean to imply that the XTi is a bad amp at all...in fact, they sound very good. If you do a little homework, you'll notice that a lot of high-end custom theater installers have been using banks of XTi's for dedicated rooms and usually ignoring the DSP sections...

DrWho:

I suppose it might make sense if one believes that there are thresholds of audibility for different types of distortions...like if your speakers are a touch on the harsh side and you throw on a harsh sounding amplifier, then the problem is going to compound. If you get rid of the harshness from the speakers, there is a chance that the harshness from the amplifier alone isn't enough to cross that threshold of audibility.

Doc,

The compounding effect you are describing here with amps and speakers is similar to what I described with many marginal or older recordings sounding better on the Jubilees than the Klipschorns. If you apply this effect to the combined frequency response errors of the recording + the speaker system then the resulting output may cross that obvious threshold of audibility territory and tip the scale significantly. For some material, this overshadows the "more revealing speaker makes it sound worse" characteristic that we generally concede.

DrWho:

wallflower:

...I've realized that electronics play a large roll in providing a natural or "real" sense of the tone and character of these particular instruments...

1) ...As far as amps, I feel there is absolutely an audible difference when different amps are being used, but the magnitude of that difference is much smaller compared to the magnitude of difference imparted by the speakers themselves...it seems to me that the differences between amps become less dramatic when the quality of the speakers increase..I hear bigger differences between amps on the Khorns than I do on the Jubilees...

2) ...The XTi's also offer 48dB/octave which surprisingly sounds a lot cleaner than the 24dB/octave offered by the EV Dx38. The steeper slopes clear up the depth of the soundstage and help isolate the instruments from each other - in other words, less blurring and it's easier to concentrate on the individual parts in the music...

3) ...You could throw the best amp(s) with the best crossovers at the Khorn, but it'll be cheaper to buy Jubs with a pair of XTi's and you'll still end up with significantly better sound...

The second quote is very interesting.  Having the ability to change crossover settings on the fly through use of active crossovers really highlighted the importance of this often overlooked area.  

I can tell a Stratocaster from a Telecaster though a boombox.:) If you've played or been around different guitars using different set ups you'll have no problem differentiating the differences. Truthfully, it's not all that difficult regardless of what you listen through if you really know what they sound like. Your question is interesting in light of the fact that you can make any guitar sound almost like any other guitar by modifying the pickups, with mixing, or by processing. Newer artists like Dan Donegan of Disturbed run through multiple processors to get the sound they want, and by the time they're done you have no idea what they're playing with or through. Donegan plays with a Washburn using the same pickups that Carlos Santana uses -- well, you get my meaning. As for "tone" -- the exact meaning as it applies to audio has been debated about for some time around here. However, for all the debate it's simply the "character or quality of the sound" -- the voicing.

Everything and anything impacts the voicing -- everything from the gear and the circuit types imployed all the way down to the actual components used in the gear itself. Naturally, the loudspeaker has the greatest impact, and I would say it creates the basic signature or platform which you then build around -- manipulating the voicing in subtle and not so subtle ways with the gear you put behind it. A lot is said about the room these days, but regardless of the room you push a speaker into, I believe the basic character of the sound remains intact. So, we can change the tone or character with the gear, but not so much that the personality of the speaker changes. If you want to change the personality of the loudspeaker -- change horns and drivers!

I really agree with Who when he says the better the loudspeaker the less difference the gear makes, and it's really painful for me to say that. That's not to say it doesn't make a difference, just not to the same degree. My experience with solid state in the past has always been disappointing: Dry, clinical, spitty, harsh, bright and forward -- yet here I am. Craig thinks I'm just getting old and can't hear worth a crap anymore -- I suppose it's as good as an explanation as any.:) I've heard new Klipschorns with the Crown amps I'm using and I didn't think it sounded very good. The same amps on the Jubilee produces some of the best sound I've heard in 30 years -- I have absolutely no explanation for this. I like to pretend I'm a liberated audiophile, but I'm pretty sure if I had to go back to Heritage, it wouldn't happen without tubes. Do tubes make the Jubilees sound subjectively better. Yes, to me they do, but instead of light years better it's more of a stone's throw -- and the Crowns do bring a couple of things to the table that tubes don't; very tight, authoritative, and though not quite as relaxed and transparent as the better tube set ups, it's closer than you might think -- surprisingly transparent.

The active set up with DSP affords a degree of flexibility, that once you experience it -- it's very hard to think about going back. I may go back to tubes someday out of boredom (for that's my nature), but I doubt I'll ever go back to passive filters. If I do go back to tubes, it won't be without a DEQX, and that's a very serious chunk of change. I don't buy into the idea, not even remotely -- that DSP and the duplicity of the DA process degrades signal quality, creates distortion, or reduces transparency. I think it's 100% complete bullshit. I've spent more time than I care to admit researching this and I can't find any consensus on it anywhere -- most of it sounds like reading a debate about wire. All I know is that it sounds fanatastic and when I use good recordings I simply can't hear a single objectionable thing in the sound. At some point you really do have to trust what your ears are telling you.

The Jubilee uses a compression driver outfitted with a titanium diaphragm, and this a large contributing factor to the voicing of the Jubilee. It just plain sounds different than the phenolic used in the K-55, and I'm talking completely different.The K-55 coupled to the K-400, though warmer sounding in direct comparison -- is also pinchy, brash, and closed-in sounding. Approaching live levels, the phenolic turns from its charateristic warmth and puts forth a spitty, obnoxiously bright and dirty soundfield. Changing horns, drivers, and networks helps tremendously, but it is not at the same level as moving to a driver/horn combination that has 10 times less distortion and produces a soundfield that is completely immersive in nature. This is the result from using a driver with four times the surface area with a horn that launches the sound smoothly and doesn't reflect sound back towards the throat. The sound is crystal clean, without coloration, incredibly coherent -- and pulls it off without sounding bright or overbearing. If the tone is brown, it will be from the recording. This is as it should be, and is preferable to having every recording painted with the same mask. In conclusion, every listening session begins with a jaw drop and ends with a head shake.

I guess this constitutes my six month review.

nice write up.  I wish I had a room large enough.

jacksonbart:

nice write up.  I wish I had a room large enough.

Thank you, but its that nice small room.  No I would think you would want at least 16 feet across and another 20 plus long. 

Yeah, I'm wondering if my room is big enough. It's 16' x 15', and open to the kitchen on the 15' side. If I could work it they would go on the 16' wall.

Mike

jacksonbart:

Thank you, but its that nice small room.  No I would think you would want at least 16 feet across and another 20 plus long. 

I remember comments on one of these threads about "How big of a room do I need for Khorns?". I also recall the consensus was that they (Khorns) would sound very good in just about any room.  I suppose that when the room gets small enough that you're left and right ears are each inside the mouth of a K-402 horn, then that room might be a little too small... One could staple the bass traps to the ceiling, assuming that you wouldn't bang your head on them when playing Guitar Hero.

Chris 

Mike Lindsey:

Yeah, I'm wondering if my room is big enough. It's 16' x 15', and open to the kitchen on the 15' side. If I could work it they would go on the 16' wall.

Mike

Chris 

Ceilings are 9.5' and are flat.

Mike